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aber-fan View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10 February 2020 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

IIRC, Parkes didn't regather the ball. He tapped it backwards to a Scarlets player. Juggling is ok as long it is regathered before it touches another player or the floor. That's how I remember the incident, and how I interpret the law on this.


I think you're right - I remember an incident a few years ago now, when a player juggled a pass up into the air (a bit like Tomos Williams the other day), and kept it up there as he kept on running - he rounded a defender in that way (who was completely bemused) and went on to either score himself, or offload for a try.

It looked totally wrong and unfair, but the try stood!
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Rob o'r Bont View Drop Down
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Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

IIRC, Parkes didn't regather the ball. He tapped it backwards to a Scarlets player. Juggling is ok as long it is regathered before it touches another player or the floor. That's how I remember the incident, and how I interpret the law on this.

Well thats exactly what happened today, i.e. like Parkes he tapped it backwards but the ref said play on. 

Interesting if RR is correct and there has been a law change.


Edited by Rob o'r Bont - 09 February 2020 at 10:37pm
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IIRC, Parkes didn't regather the ball. He tapped it backwards to a Scarlets player. Juggling is ok as long it is regathered before it touches another player or the floor. That's how I remember the incident, and how I interpret the law on this.
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Pretty sure there has been a law change regarding juggling the ball forward and regathering it since the original post
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Same in Ireland Women v Wales Women today. Irish player knocked the ball forward in the tackle, regathered and it was fed out of the ruck and it led to an Irish try. 
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This just happened again in the France v Italy game, around the 13 minute mark.  Ball slipped out of the French player's hand and he tapped it back without 'gaining control'.  Ref didn't even blink; play on. Commentators said no problem.  The only time I've ever seen a ref blow up for this was when Parkes did it in 2017.  

Edited by Rob o'r Bont - 09 February 2020 at 3:36pm
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I've noticed quite a few 'knock ons' saved by the backward flick pass, just like this one in recent international matches and the ref just plays on.  Has anything changed since the the Parks incident or is everyone else just ignoring it?

Edited by Rob o'r Bont - 19 June 2018 at 12:49pm
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The more I think about the implications of this incident the more I think that the IRB need to clarify it asap. 

I sincerely hope that someone is on the case.
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Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

so is this the end of the flick pass in rugby?

No its the end of the flick pass if you have also knocked it forward!!!!
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I don't get the reason for this negative rule as the Administrators of the game are always talking about more game time /live action and tempo. Who on earth felt this sort of scenario merited attention of a restrictive nature? It's very odd. Needs review. 
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so is this the end of the flick pass in rugby?
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Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

I've re-watched this several times now, and can't see any evidence of the ball touching another player or ground before being tapped backwards by HP (so an element of control imo) !

I am no ref but I think the consensus here is that it was never controlled by Hadleigh so whoever it touched after leaving him, whether in front or not, the ground or another Scarlet player the ball was deemed to be knocked on as it went forward initially from Hadleigh when he made his first attempt at catching it. 

That appears to be the ref's interpretation which is confusing to say the least. 

Yes - we can see, now (after some good work by SFers) why the ref took his decision - the ball went forward, then was flicked - Hadleigh never caught the ball before it reached Elias - so the ref reckoned it was a knock on under the laws. I very much doubt the law was intended to be interpreted in this way, but the ref can certainly argue his point under the letter as it stands.

Someone, somewhere, needs to take a decision on how, exactly, this sort of incident should be decided - knock on, or not - and send an instruction to the poor refs!

Right then, some questions to stir the "hornets nest"

Can you not catch a ball with one backward facing hand ? 
How long does it have to be in contact with the hand to be deemed a catch ?

When I watched the replay of the incident during the TMO referral, I was sure that Parkes steadied the ball with one hand before he tapped it on with the other. Don't think however that he had both hands on the ball simultaneously. However I've always assumed that it was possible to 'catch' a ball with one hand and use say the chest to steady it. 

Cast your mind back to last season/season before last and the 'tackle' on Sam Davies out in Connacht. The try was disallowed as it was deemed that he'd been tackled and held, however the tackler barely got hold of his shirt. 

Judging by that incident, and to be consistent, then the ball only needs to have minimal contact with the hand in terms of time for it to be deemed a catch
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Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

I've re-watched this several times now, and can't see any evidence of the ball touching another player or ground before being tapped backwards by HP (so an element of control imo) !

I am no ref but I think the consensus here is that it was never controlled by Hadleigh so whoever it touched after leaving him, whether in front or not, the ground or another Scarlet player the ball was deemed to be knocked on as it went forward initially from Hadleigh when he made his first attempt at catching it. 

That appears to be the ref's interpretation which is confusing to say the least. 

Yes - we can see, now (after some good work by SFers) why the ref took his decision - the ball went forward, then was flicked - Hadleigh never caught the ball before it reached Elias - so the ref reckoned it was a knock on under the laws. I very much doubt the law was intended to be interpreted in this way, but the ref can certainly argue his point under the letter as it stands.

Someone, somewhere, needs to take a decision on how, exactly, this sort of incident should be decided - knock on, or not - and send an instruction to the poor refs!

Right then, some questions to stir the "hornets nest"

Can you not catch a ball with one backward facing hand ? 
How long does it have to be in contact with the hand to be deemed a catch ?


Edited by scarletman - 13 September 2017 at 11:54am
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Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

I've re-watched this several times now, and can't see any evidence of the ball touching another player or ground before being tapped backwards by HP (so an element of control imo) !

I am no ref but I think the consensus here is that it was never controlled by Hadleigh so whoever it touched after leaving him, whether in front or not, the ground or another Scarlet player the ball was deemed to be knocked on as it went forward initially from Hadleigh when he made his first attempt at catching it. 

That appears to be the ref's interpretation which is confusing to say the least. 

Yes - we can see, now (after some good work by SFers) why the ref took his decision - the ball went forward, then was flicked - Hadleigh never caught the ball before it reached Elias - so the ref reckoned it was a knock on under the laws. I very much doubt the law was intended to be interpreted in this way, but the ref can certainly argue his point under the letter as it stands.

Someone, somewhere, needs to take a decision on how, exactly, this sort of incident should be decided - knock on, or not - and send an instruction to the poor refs!
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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Originally posted by supertaf supertaf wrote:

As has been mentioned, I wonder how they will now rule flicked on passes such as we did against Munster? Surely by the same law it's now a knock on despite there being nothing in the new laws concerning this issue! No good asking Greg Garner as his knowledge of the laws has always been debatable (Toulon away, no more said).

I don't see the flick pass against Munster being caught as there was no forward fumble.
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Originally posted by supertaf supertaf wrote:


As has been mentioned, I wonder how they will now rule flicked on passes such as we did against Munster? Surely by the same law it's now a knock on despite there being nothing in the new laws concerning this issue! No good asking Greg Garner as his knowledge of the laws has always been debatable (Toulon away, no more said).

No issue if it's flicked backwards surely. Only going to be a problem if it's flicked forward, in which case it's either a forward pass or knock on, take your pick!
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