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Parkes' knock on...

Printed From: Scarlet Fever Llanelli Rugby Sport Wales Tickets
Category: RUGBY
Forum Name: ARE YOU BLIND REF.... OR ARE WE WRONG ???
Forum Description: Refereeing points of law questions and answers
URL: https://www.scarletfever.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43607
Printed Date: 21 June 2021 at 10:13am
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Topic: Parkes' knock on...
Posted By: Wil Chips
Subject: Parkes' knock on...
Date Posted: 10 September 2017 at 9:19am
I'd really be interested in the refereeing fraternities view on it...got me challenged...

Knocked it on yep, caught it or had it in control at any point before diverting the ball in a certain direction...nope....did he need to have it under total control to do that....no idea!



Replies:
Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 10 September 2017 at 9:47am
Apparently he knocked it on and never regained full control so the next Scarlets player who touched the ball made it an offence. If he had juggled with it then brought in under full control no problem. 


Posted By: ap sior
Date Posted: 10 September 2017 at 10:22am
Here's a thought ! Stick with it !

He did not have the ball under control in the classic sense of holding the ball in both hands. However, he did have it under control in the sense that he did exactly what he wanted to do with the ball, namely tap it on to a supporting player. It was clear to me that HP made a decision NOT to bring it under control in order to ship it on to a supporting player who had a run-in to the try line. 

You may have to think outside the box to understand what I'm trying to say here !!!!!

My point does fit in with what Wil has said !

It would be interesting to have Scarletman's take on it.


Posted By: haydn_davies
Date Posted: 10 September 2017 at 10:34am
What it says in the laws...

"A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line."

To me, the bit in bold is the bit I've always defined a knock-on as. If a player regained the ball why would it be a knock-on? Wether Parkes tapped the ball back or caught it is immaterial in my eye, as he knocked the ball backwards.

Very dangerous ground if players are being pinged for knocking the ball backwards. Can of worms...


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Think, think, think - it's a thinking man's game!! - The Great Carwyn James.
Just for our SA friends - Weste is die beste!


Posted By: ap sior
Date Posted: 10 September 2017 at 10:40am
Originally posted by haydn_davies haydn_davies wrote:

What it says in the laws...

"A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line."

To me, the bit in bold is the bit I've always defined a knock-on as. If a player regained the ball why would it be a knock-on? Wether Parkes tapped the ball back or caught it is immaterial in my eye, as he knocked the ball backwards.

Very dangerous ground if players are being pinged for knocking the ball backwards. Can of worms...

Last night's game has gone now as has the 5/7 pts we could/should have had.

If the ref believes that he made the correct decision then we live with it. However going forward I think that this needs clarification from higher authority. Without attaching blame, was the ref right or wrong in his interpretation ? Players, coaches referees and supporters deserve an answer. 

Personally I thought that it was a brilliant piece of quick thinking by Hadleigh to keep the move going.


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 10 September 2017 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by haydn_davies haydn_davies wrote:

What it says in the laws...

"A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line."

To me, the bit in bold is the bit I've always defined a knock-on as. If a player regained the ball why would it be a knock-on? Wether Parkes tapped the ball back or caught it is immaterial in my eye, as he knocked the ball backwards.

Very dangerous ground if players are being pinged for knocking the ball backwards. Can of worms...

This is exactly the way I have always understood the law (since it was changed ages ago to allow 'juggling' - in the harsher times of my youth, such juggles were 'knock ons' under the law, regardless of whether the player went on to regain control).

Now, either the law has been changed since last season (entirely possible) or the ref introduced a completely new and personal interpretation of the old laws.

Scarletman/any qualified refs - please help!


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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 10 September 2017 at 3:16pm
Deserved a point for his juggling skills I think.


Posted By: multinational
Date Posted: 10 September 2017 at 3:18pm
I'm not neccesarily qualified to state the laws but I wouldn't have given a knock on and I doubt anyone would have complained

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History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again.


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 10 September 2017 at 3:34pm
So If he juggles it forward but then re-catches it/gets it under control before he then passes it backwards I THINK thats ok 

BUT if he juggles it forward and doesnt quite catch it / control it before passing it on , then maybe thats not ok? Am I on the right track here?


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 10 September 2017 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

So If he juggles it forward but then re-catches it/gets it under control before he then passes it backwards I THINK thats ok 

BUT if he juggles it forward and doesnt quite catch it / control it before passing it on , then maybe thats not ok? Am I on the right track here?

That was the ref's view yesterday.

We await a definitive answer on whether he was right/making it up as he went along from Scarletman or similar!


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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: scarletnut
Date Posted: 10 September 2017 at 4:04pm
I was more concerned about the referee's negligence towards player safety 

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I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1


Posted By: John
Date Posted: 10 September 2017 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by haydn_davies haydn_davies wrote:

What it says in the laws...

"A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line."

To me, the bit in bold is the bit I've always defined a knock-on as. If a player regained the ball why would it be a knock-on? Wether Parkes tapped the ball back or caught it is immaterial in my eye, as he knocked the ball backwards.

Very dangerous ground if players are being pinged for knocking the ball backwards. Can of worms...


Hadleigh never caught it. And he never possession.


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 10 September 2017 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by John John wrote:

Originally posted by haydn_davies haydn_davies wrote:

What it says in the laws...

"A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line."

To me, the bit in bold is the bit I've always defined a knock-on as. If a player regained the ball why would it be a knock-on? Wether Parkes tapped the ball back or caught it is immaterial in my eye, as he knocked the ball backwards.

Very dangerous ground if players are being pinged for knocking the ball backwards. Can of worms...


Hadleigh never caught it. And he never possession.

No, but we often see players flicking the ball on when under pressure, without being blown up. So 'catching' as such is not the issue here. The issue is whether you can juggle forwards, then flick backwards, without being pinged.

It does look as if either the laws have changed, or the interpretation has - from that ref anyway. No-one on SF has seen this sort of thing called a 'knock on' before, as far as I can see.

We still await a 'proper' ref to come on here and clarify!


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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: Mogwen
Date Posted: 10 September 2017 at 5:39pm
I just hope that this ruling will be consistent throughout. As one of the commentators said last night,if that was sonny bill playing for the AB's, that would have been an awesome piece of skill and an excellent try.

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The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 10 September 2017 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by Mogwen Mogwen wrote:

I just hope that this ruling will be consistent throughout. As one of the commentators said last night,if that was sonny bill playing for the AB's, that would have been an awesome piece of skill and an excellent try.

Last night's ref was consistent, as he gave two more knock-on decisions in similar circumstances. We still don't know if the rest of the 'refereeing community' Wink will interpret the law in the same way.


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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: Mogwen
Date Posted: 10 September 2017 at 7:10pm
I agree. He was, but I was talking about ref's around the globe in general. Different refs interpret the law differently. Just hope that's not the case

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The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.


Posted By: reesytheexile
Date Posted: 10 September 2017 at 7:34pm
Isn't the intention surely to keep the game moving with as much ball play as possible? If so then it's a retrograde step to bring this negative rule in. What's wrong with them 😡?

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"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook


Posted By: salmidach
Date Posted: 10 September 2017 at 10:08pm
still haven't found the change in the law

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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance - Terry Pratchett


Posted By: ap sior
Date Posted: 10 September 2017 at 10:14pm
Can anyone text Scarletman and get him on here ? 

Anyone have a direct line to Nigel Owens or Whitehouse ?


Posted By: van jaarsveld
Date Posted: 10 September 2017 at 11:56pm
I've always thought a drop goal is a knock on as the ball leaves the hand going forward and hits the ground fractionally before it's kicked.


Posted By: scarletman
Date Posted: 11 September 2017 at 9:01am
Can anyone post a clip of the incident please as I have not been able to see the game as yet ?

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Herman Tours ... Still the best way to travel !


Posted By: ap sior
Date Posted: 11 September 2017 at 10:02am
Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Can anyone post a clip of the incident please as I have not been able to see the game as yet ?

Have you tried S4C CLIC ?


Posted By: scarletman
Date Posted: 11 September 2017 at 10:13am
Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Can anyone post a clip of the incident please as I have not been able to see the game as yet ?

Have you tried S4C CLIC ?

Not from work Confused


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Herman Tours ... Still the best way to travel !


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 11 September 2017 at 11:48am
Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Can anyone post a clip of the incident please as I have not been able to see the game as yet ?

Have you tried S4C CLIC ?

Not from work Confused

Unfortunately, Scrum V didn't show it... when you get a chance, the S4C replay of the whole game on BBC iPlayer has the incident, with the match clock stopped on 21.03... the incident occurs around 39 min into the programme. Your opinion will be valued!


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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: Gate12
Date Posted: 11 September 2017 at 12:15pm
Watched a lot of games on the weekend, similar incidents in many games but none had the same outcome as ours.


Posted By: scarletman
Date Posted: 11 September 2017 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Can anyone post a clip of the incident please as I have not been able to see the game as yet ?

Have you tried S4C CLIC ?

Not from work Confused

Unfortunately, Scrum V didn't show it... when you get a chance, the S4C replay of the whole game on BBC iPlayer has the incident, with the match clock stopped on 21.03... the incident occurs around 39 min into the programme. Your opinion will be valued!

Just sneaked a look (thanks for the timings) aber, 
Baffled to say the least !! ConfusedShockedConfusedConfusedShocked !!

This incident will make some interesting conversations at all the Referee Society meetings this month !

knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.


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Herman Tours ... Still the best way to travel !


Posted By: ap sior
Date Posted: 11 September 2017 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Can anyone post a clip of the incident please as I have not been able to see the game as yet ?

Have you tried S4C CLIC ?

Not from work Confused

Unfortunately, Scrum V didn't show it... when you get a chance, the S4C replay of the whole game on BBC iPlayer has the incident, with the match clock stopped on 21.03... the incident occurs around 39 min into the programme. Your opinion will be valued!

Just sneaked a look (thanks for the timings) aber, 
Baffled to say the least !! ConfusedShockedConfusedConfusedShocked !!

This incident will make some interesting conversations at all the Referee Society meetings this month !

knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

Many thanks for your insight SM. 

I really hope that Greg Garner makes a statement/issues a directive to referees stating whether it was the correct decision or not, and explains his decision. For all parties concerned I think that would be the sensible way forward.


Posted By: scarletman
Date Posted: 11 September 2017 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Can anyone post a clip of the incident please as I have not been able to see the game as yet ?

Have you tried S4C CLIC ?

Not from work Confused

Unfortunately, Scrum V didn't show it... when you get a chance, the S4C replay of the whole game on BBC iPlayer has the incident, with the match clock stopped on 21.03... the incident occurs around 39 min into the programme. Your opinion will be valued!

Just sneaked a look (thanks for the timings) aber, 
Baffled to say the least !! ConfusedShockedConfusedConfusedShocked !!

This incident will make some interesting conversations at all the Referee Society meetings this month !

knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

Many thanks for your insight SM. 

I really hope that Greg Garner makes a statement/issues a directive to referees stating whether it was the correct decision or not, and explains his decision. For all parties concerned I think that would be the sensible way forward.

I'm wondering how the next SBW or FOXY tap pass will be viewed ?


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Herman Tours ... Still the best way to travel !


Posted By: ap sior
Date Posted: 11 September 2017 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Can anyone post a clip of the incident please as I have not been able to see the game as yet ?

Have you tried S4C CLIC ?

Not from work Confused

Unfortunately, Scrum V didn't show it... when you get a chance, the S4C replay of the whole game on BBC iPlayer has the incident, with the match clock stopped on 21.03... the incident occurs around 39 min into the programme. Your opinion will be valued!

Just sneaked a look (thanks for the timings) aber, 
Baffled to say the least !! ConfusedShockedConfusedConfusedShocked !!

This incident will make some interesting conversations at all the Referee Society meetings this month !

knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

Many thanks for your insight SM. 

I really hope that Greg Garner makes a statement/issues a directive to referees stating whether it was the correct decision or not, and explains his decision. For all parties concerned I think that would be the sensible way forward.

I'm wondering how the next SBW or FOXY tap pass will be viewed ?

That point was made in commentary. In one sense, Parkes was in control of the ball as he clearly knocked it down to Elias in order to carry on the move. S4C commentators stated that had SBW or another AB done that then we'd be applauding his skill and quick thinking !!

The irony here is that Parkes is a New Zealander playing in the NH !!!!


Posted By: trident
Date Posted: 11 September 2017 at 12:44pm
Hadleigh knocked it forward with his hand or arm.
It touched another player before the original player (Hadleigh) caught it.
Technically was it therefore the correct decision?


Posted By: ap sior
Date Posted: 11 September 2017 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by trident trident wrote:

Hadleigh knocked it forward with his hand or arm.
It touched another player before the original player (Hadleigh) caught it.
Technically was it therefore the correct decision?

Interesting point you raise. You are the first to point this out. Can you tell us which player the ball hit before Hadleigh 'caught' it ? 


Posted By: trident
Date Posted: 11 September 2017 at 2:10pm
That's my point really, Hadleigh didn't 'catch' it did he. Whether he 'controlled' it is another thing, I'd argue he did, in tapping it back to a team mate, but the law says 'catch'


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 11 September 2017 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by trident trident wrote:

Hadleigh knocked it forward with his hand or arm.
It touched another player before the original player (Hadleigh) caught it.
Technically was it therefore the correct decision?

Interesting point you raise. You are the first to point this out. Can you tell us which player the ball hit before Hadleigh 'caught' it ? 

I think the ref ruled that it was Elias who was not in front!!!!


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 11 September 2017 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by trident trident wrote:

Hadleigh knocked it forward with his hand or arm.
It touched another player before the original player (Hadleigh) caught it.
Technically was it therefore the correct decision?

Absolutely NOT - I suggest you have a good look at the match on iPlayer, at

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p05dfxdv/clwb-rygbi-cyfres-2017-zebre-v-scarlets" rel="nofollow - http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p05dfxdv/clwb-rygbi-cyfres-2017-zebre-v-scarlets

The time is 21.03 on the match clock, and it's at around 39 min into the transmission - the incident is shown from several angles.

Hadleigh juggles the ball, then taps it across to a supporting Scarlets player (backwards, also clear on the replay). The ball never touches anyone else.

So, judging by the law quoted by Scarletman, the ref was clearly wrong. 


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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: ap sior
Date Posted: 11 September 2017 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by trident trident wrote:

That's my point really, Hadleigh didn't 'catch' it did he. Whether he 'controlled' it is another thing, I'd argue he did, in tapping it back to a team mate, but the law says 'catch'

knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

The above is from SM's post. I assume that it comes from the law/rule book. 

The ball clearly went forward from Hadleigh. I think that we can agree on that. It did touch another player before Hadleigh could catch it, although Hadleigh deliberately did not try to catch it. Nowhere in the above does it state clearly the position of the 'other' player, in this case Elias. Elias was behind Hadleigh, and Hadleigh clearly knocked it back to Elias. 

However if you read the rule as it it, the ball did touch another player before Hadligh managed to catch it, however that player happened to be behind Hadleigh.

Strange one, and I don't think that the rule makers intended the outcome that we saw on Saturday.


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 11 September 2017 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by trident trident wrote:

That's my point really, Hadleigh didn't 'catch' it did he. Whether he 'controlled' it is another thing, I'd argue he did, in tapping it back to a team mate, but the law says 'catch'

knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

The above is from SM's post. I assume that it comes from the law/rule book. 

The ball clearly went forward from Hadleigh. I think that we can agree on that. It did touch another player before Hadleigh could catch it, although Hadleigh deliberately did not try to catch it. Nowhere in the above does it state clearly the position of the 'other' player, in this case Elias. Elias was behind Hadleigh, and Hadleigh clearly knocked it back to Elias. 

However if you read the rule as it it, the ball did touch another player before Hadligh managed to catch it, however that player happened to be behind Hadleigh.

Strange one, and I don't think that the rule makers intended the outcome that we saw on Saturday.

I see what you mean, now.

Clearly, the lawmakers did not intend the type of 'Hadleigh incident' to be penalised. The law makers need to put out a clarification, pronto.


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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: ap sior
Date Posted: 11 September 2017 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by trident trident wrote:

That's my point really, Hadleigh didn't 'catch' it did he. Whether he 'controlled' it is another thing, I'd argue he did, in tapping it back to a team mate, but the law says 'catch'

knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

The above is from SM's post. I assume that it comes from the law/rule book. 

The ball clearly went forward from Hadleigh. I think that we can agree on that. It did touch another player before Hadleigh could catch it, although Hadleigh deliberately did not try to catch it. Nowhere in the above does it state clearly the position of the 'other' player, in this case Elias. Elias was behind Hadleigh, and Hadleigh clearly knocked it back to Elias. 

However if you read the rule as it it, the ball did touch another player before Hadligh managed to catch it, however that player happened to be behind Hadleigh.

Strange one, and I don't think that the rule makers intended the outcome that we saw on Saturday.

I see what you mean, now.

Clearly, the lawmakers did not intend the type of 'Hadleigh incident' to be penalised. The law makers need to put out a clarification, pronto.

I was as mystified as anyone by the ref's decision. As the commentators pointed out, had SBW done that they would applaud his genius !

However having read the rule as quoted by SM, that's the only conclusion that I can come to. 

I wouldn't want to see a situation arising where a player can deliberately knock the ball forward over an opponent's head to gain an advantage. Perhaps the law was drafted with that in mind, unless that scenario is covered elsewhere in the laws.


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 11 September 2017 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by trident trident wrote:

That's my point really, Hadleigh didn't 'catch' it did he. Whether he 'controlled' it is another thing, I'd argue he did, in tapping it back to a team mate, but the law says 'catch'

knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

The above is from SM's post. I assume that it comes from the law/rule book. 

The ball clearly went forward from Hadleigh. I think that we can agree on that. It did touch another player before Hadleigh could catch it, although Hadleigh deliberately did not try to catch it. Nowhere in the above does it state clearly the position of the 'other' player, in this case Elias. Elias was behind Hadleigh, and Hadleigh clearly knocked it back to Elias. 

However if you read the rule as it it, the ball did touch another player before Hadligh managed to catch it, however that player happened to be behind Hadleigh.

Strange one, and I don't think that the rule makers intended the outcome that we saw on Saturday.

I see what you mean, now.

Clearly, the lawmakers did not intend the type of 'Hadleigh incident' to be penalised. The law makers need to put out a clarification, pronto.

I was as mystified as anyone by the ref's decision. As the commentators pointed out, had SBW done that they would applaud his genius !

However having read the rule as quoted by SM, that's the only conclusion that I can come to. 

I wouldn't want to see a situation arising where a player can deliberately knock the ball forward over an opponent's head to gain an advantage. Perhaps the law was drafted with that in mind, unless that scenario is covered elsewhere in the laws.

I agree with your summation. If Parkes had got the ball under control before offloading then it would have been fine. At no stage did he have it under control, it went forward from his hands then he tap passed backwards to another players - hence the decision. Comparisons with a flick pass all in one movement are incorrect as the offence occurred when the ball went forward initially from Parkes. 


Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 11 September 2017 at 7:14pm
I think we need to be clear on a few things here.

Scarletman is giving us his view on the incident in terms of the black and white how the ball moved. He's not in any way shape or form criticising the individual referee, his assistants or the TMO.

He may be highlighting an inconsistency in how interpretations of the laws written as they are, as described earlier in the thread by Haydn, and how they are communicated to all levels of the game.

We can only imagine how other referees may have interpreted things. Depending on the name you insert into the phrase, "REF X would have allowed it" will determine whether you need to allow a NOT to the sentence.

For example, Nigel Owens is likely to have mentally applauded it, whereas someone like Peyper may have had to check who was at home, or who was the more rated side before deciding. Less experienced refs may have just blown it because it was a bit too complicated for the speed with which they can read the game.

Overall, this thread is an excellent example of constructive discussion on a result that only affects our points difference and not league points.

What has not been particularly highlighted has been the player safety issues that caught the eye. The tackles on JMc and the lift over the horizontal plus Rhys Patchell's tackle around the neck plus a choke tackle not easily spotted from the stand are just three that Haydn and Scarletnut have been exercised by. I guess that would be going off topic, though.

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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: scarletman
Date Posted: 12 September 2017 at 8:50am
I've re-watched this several times now, and can't see any evidence of the ball touching another player or ground before being tapped backwards by HP (so an element of control imo) !


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Herman Tours ... Still the best way to travel !


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 12 September 2017 at 9:06am
Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

I've re-watched this several times now, and can't see any evidence of the ball touching another player or ground before being tapped backwards by HP (so an element of control imo) !

I am no ref but I think the consensus here is that it was never controlled by Hadleigh so whoever it touched after leaving him, whether in front or not, the ground or another Scarlet player the ball was deemed to be knocked on as it went forward initially from Hadleigh when he made his first attempt at catching it. 

That appears to be the ref's interpretation which is confusing to say the least. 


Posted By: supertaf
Date Posted: 12 September 2017 at 10:38am
As has been mentioned, I wonder how they will now rule flicked on passes such as we did against Munster? Surely by the same law it's now a knock on despite there being nothing in the new laws concerning this issue! No good asking Greg Garner as his knowledge of the laws has always been debatable (Toulon away, no more said).

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Scarlets - Suppliers of fine rugby since 1872


Posted By: trident
Date Posted: 12 September 2017 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by supertaf supertaf wrote:


As has been mentioned, I wonder how they will now rule flicked on passes such as we did against Munster? Surely by the same law it's now a knock on despite there being nothing in the new laws concerning this issue! No good asking Greg Garner as his knowledge of the laws has always been debatable (Toulon away, no more said).

No issue if it's flicked backwards surely. Only going to be a problem if it's flicked forward, in which case it's either a forward pass or knock on, take your pick!


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 12 September 2017 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by supertaf supertaf wrote:

As has been mentioned, I wonder how they will now rule flicked on passes such as we did against Munster? Surely by the same law it's now a knock on despite there being nothing in the new laws concerning this issue! No good asking Greg Garner as his knowledge of the laws has always been debatable (Toulon away, no more said).

I don't see the flick pass against Munster being caught as there was no forward fumble.


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 12 September 2017 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

I've re-watched this several times now, and can't see any evidence of the ball touching another player or ground before being tapped backwards by HP (so an element of control imo) !

I am no ref but I think the consensus here is that it was never controlled by Hadleigh so whoever it touched after leaving him, whether in front or not, the ground or another Scarlet player the ball was deemed to be knocked on as it went forward initially from Hadleigh when he made his first attempt at catching it. 

That appears to be the ref's interpretation which is confusing to say the least. 

Yes - we can see, now (after some good work by SFers) why the ref took his decision - the ball went forward, then was flicked - Hadleigh never caught the ball before it reached Elias - so the ref reckoned it was a knock on under the laws. I very much doubt the law was intended to be interpreted in this way, but the ref can certainly argue his point under the letter as it stands.

Someone, somewhere, needs to take a decision on how, exactly, this sort of incident should be decided - knock on, or not - and send an instruction to the poor refs!


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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: scarletman
Date Posted: 13 September 2017 at 11:54am
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

I've re-watched this several times now, and can't see any evidence of the ball touching another player or ground before being tapped backwards by HP (so an element of control imo) !

I am no ref but I think the consensus here is that it was never controlled by Hadleigh so whoever it touched after leaving him, whether in front or not, the ground or another Scarlet player the ball was deemed to be knocked on as it went forward initially from Hadleigh when he made his first attempt at catching it. 

That appears to be the ref's interpretation which is confusing to say the least. 

Yes - we can see, now (after some good work by SFers) why the ref took his decision - the ball went forward, then was flicked - Hadleigh never caught the ball before it reached Elias - so the ref reckoned it was a knock on under the laws. I very much doubt the law was intended to be interpreted in this way, but the ref can certainly argue his point under the letter as it stands.

Someone, somewhere, needs to take a decision on how, exactly, this sort of incident should be decided - knock on, or not - and send an instruction to the poor refs!

Right then, some questions to stir the "hornets nest"

Can you not catch a ball with one backward facing hand ? 
How long does it have to be in contact with the hand to be deemed a catch ?


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Herman Tours ... Still the best way to travel !


Posted By: ap sior
Date Posted: 13 September 2017 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

I've re-watched this several times now, and can't see any evidence of the ball touching another player or ground before being tapped backwards by HP (so an element of control imo) !

I am no ref but I think the consensus here is that it was never controlled by Hadleigh so whoever it touched after leaving him, whether in front or not, the ground or another Scarlet player the ball was deemed to be knocked on as it went forward initially from Hadleigh when he made his first attempt at catching it. 

That appears to be the ref's interpretation which is confusing to say the least. 

Yes - we can see, now (after some good work by SFers) why the ref took his decision - the ball went forward, then was flicked - Hadleigh never caught the ball before it reached Elias - so the ref reckoned it was a knock on under the laws. I very much doubt the law was intended to be interpreted in this way, but the ref can certainly argue his point under the letter as it stands.

Someone, somewhere, needs to take a decision on how, exactly, this sort of incident should be decided - knock on, or not - and send an instruction to the poor refs!

Right then, some questions to stir the "hornets nest"

Can you not catch a ball with one backward facing hand ? 
How long does it have to be in contact with the hand to be deemed a catch ?

When I watched the replay of the incident during the TMO referral, I was sure that Parkes steadied the ball with one hand before he tapped it on with the other. Don't think however that he had both hands on the ball simultaneously. However I've always assumed that it was possible to 'catch' a ball with one hand and use say the chest to steady it. 

Cast your mind back to last season/season before last and the 'tackle' on Sam Davies out in Connacht. The try was disallowed as it was deemed that he'd been tackled and held, however the tackler barely got hold of his shirt. 

Judging by that incident, and to be consistent, then the ball only needs to have minimal contact with the hand in terms of time for it to be deemed a catch


Posted By: salmidach
Date Posted: 13 September 2017 at 1:42pm
so is this the end of the flick pass in rugby?

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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance - Terry Pratchett


Posted By: reesytheexile
Date Posted: 13 September 2017 at 1:46pm
I don't get the reason for this negative rule as the Administrators of the game are always talking about more game time /live action and tempo. Who on earth felt this sort of scenario merited attention of a restrictive nature? It's very odd. Needs review. 

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"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 13 September 2017 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

so is this the end of the flick pass in rugby?

No its the end of the flick pass if you have also knocked it forward!!!!


Posted By: ap sior
Date Posted: 13 September 2017 at 2:28pm
The more I think about the implications of this incident the more I think that the IRB need to clarify it asap. 

I sincerely hope that someone is on the case.



Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 19 June 2018 at 12:49pm
I've noticed quite a few 'knock ons' saved by the backward flick pass, just like this one in recent international matches and the ref just plays on.  Has anything changed since the the Parks incident or is everyone else just ignoring it?

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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 09 February 2020 at 3:36pm
This just happened again in the France v Italy game, around the 13 minute mark.  Ball slipped out of the French player's hand and he tapped it back without 'gaining control'.  Ref didn't even blink; play on. Commentators said no problem.  The only time I've ever seen a ref blow up for this was when Parkes did it in 2017.  

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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: joni_bach
Date Posted: 09 February 2020 at 6:35pm
Same in Ireland Women v Wales Women today. Irish player knocked the ball forward in the tackle, regathered and it was fed out of the ruck and it led to an Irish try. 


Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 09 February 2020 at 9:10pm
Pretty sure there has been a law change regarding juggling the ball forward and regathering it since the original post


Posted By: ap sior
Date Posted: 09 February 2020 at 9:49pm
IIRC, Parkes didn't regather the ball. He tapped it backwards to a Scarlets player. Juggling is ok as long it is regathered before it touches another player or the floor. That's how I remember the incident, and how I interpret the law on this.



Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 09 February 2020 at 10:37pm
Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

IIRC, Parkes didn't regather the ball. He tapped it backwards to a Scarlets player. Juggling is ok as long it is regathered before it touches another player or the floor. That's how I remember the incident, and how I interpret the law on this.

Well thats exactly what happened today, i.e. like Parkes he tapped it backwards but the ref said play on. 

Interesting if RR is correct and there has been a law change.


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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 10 February 2020 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

IIRC, Parkes didn't regather the ball. He tapped it backwards to a Scarlets player. Juggling is ok as long it is regathered before it touches another player or the floor. That's how I remember the incident, and how I interpret the law on this.


I think you're right - I remember an incident a few years ago now, when a player juggled a pass up into the air (a bit like Tomos Williams the other day), and kept it up there as he kept on running - he rounded a defender in that way (who was completely bemused) and went on to either score himself, or offload for a try.

It looked totally wrong and unfair, but the try stood!


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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)



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