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Next Conservative leader

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Legendinmybathroom View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Legendinmybathroom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2022 at 10:08am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Well personally I will judge her by her actions. Quite why she chose to give Boris such a rousing send off in her speech is beyond me - perhaps playing to the still staunch gallery of support for Boris within the party. Her cabinet appointments are interesting without much hint of a reconcilation towards Sunak & his vocal supporters. 

I cannot say I am too concerned at the loss from top office of people like Patel & Raab.
She’s abhorrent and the party she represents is vile. The UK needs a proper Labour government. 

Well I am glad you are not sitting on the fence SteffLOL. Define proper Labour government - therein lies the problem Labour has faced for many, many years. The days of Nye Bevan & James Callaghan are long gone. I fear that proper Labour politicians will not get elected in our country in this day and age. Andy Burnham, for me, has the appeal required to get elected. Only when elected can real Labour policies, many of which McDonald got right, be put into practice. 


I agree, Andy Burnham is the only labour politician of the past few years who has the character, passion and conviction to really win over the voters.  Unfortunately, due to his passion and conviction to get jobs done, he’s tied to the role of mayor of Greater Manchester for another 18 months.
I truly believe that if he was the current labour leader, labour would be even further in front in the opinion poles.
 
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dr_martinov View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2022 at 10:59am
Genuine question but how much interest in left-wing policies do the majority of the UK voters actually have? Offer people small financial rewards for themselves along with continual growth of "the economy" rather than investment in social expenditure, national education and health but higher taxes and being less business-friendly and it appears most people prefer the former. Or are convinced this is in their best interest.

One of the things the Conservatives seem to have done is remove social contributions from politics. Must have been the result of privatisation and then austerity, but we now have reliance on charity-funded food banks and so on that lie outside of state support. Even education (health as well?) is starting to rely upon donations from philanthropy to compensate from cuts. So those more social minded donate their money or time to them, rather than pressure a Government to increase their funding. The wonder is public acceptance that this state of affairs as becoming the norm, but it has. This is why the wealth divide is getting wider as well. Goes back to my first comment, but enough British people seem absolutely fine with this. This effect has severely weakened Labour who now have to fight on Conservative territory. The exception to this is probably the NHS, which people do tend to band around, but it's being slowly let to turn into a sub-standard service which will then justify its closure and replacement with private companies. It's happening before our eyes, is a deliberate policy by the Conservatives, yet the majority seem fine with it.

I've said it before, but the Conservatives are experts in hiding just how nasty they really are - they simply do not care about the health and lives of the majority of the UK population yet are still able to convince enough of them to vote for them, usually using culture wars or other fear tactics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2022 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:


One of the things the Conservatives seem to have done is remove social contributions from politics. Must have been the result of privatisation and then austerity, but we now have reliance on charity-funded food banks and so on that lie outside of state support. Even education (health as well?) is starting to rely upon donations from philanthropy to compensate from cuts. So those more social minded donate their money or time to them, rather than pressure a Government to increase their funding.


You make this sound like a bad thing but conservatism celebrates people volunteering to help their community, rather than the community being coerced to give money to the state which then decides what it thinks is important.

One of the central philosophies of conservatism is that the community knows better how to support each other than a centralised authority will. But if the state is all powerful, people reduce their civic activity and assume the state will pick up the pieces.

Sometimes this is wrong, sometimes it’s correct. 

When you get to “they’re good at hiding how nasty they really are” you’re really just showing a failure imagination as instead of thinking “these people have a different philosophy to me” you default to “I don’t understand them, I have good intentions, therefore they must be malicious”. 

Obvs some people are actually malicious and you can always find them in a party such as the Tories or selectively edited into Channel 4 News vox-pops, but the millions of people who are conservative inclined won’t be persuaded to lean left if left-wing politicians and their supporters spend the majority of their time trying to tell them how nasty, stupid or malicious they are.

My main problem with the Tories is they’re incompetent.
https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2022 at 2:41pm
I would say I'm talking about the Conservative Party rather than conservatism as a philosophy and it is the observation that a political party whose policies are based around a minority then it inevitably has to get creative to gain enough votes to be elected. When that minority is pleasing richer people (a small %, many of which fund them to also make them the richest party) and business (ditto), plus with substantial overlap with the media, they can get very creative indeed. I think this is a fair point and is observational rather than emotional as you imply - but you're right in that you will always be more likely to like someone who's views you agree and they are opinions at the end of the day, albeit ones which impact our lives. I shouldn't have used the word "nasty" either, this was based on their self(?)-description as "the nasty party" at one point. I can be convinced by evidence as well, yet politicians rarely use this technique, instead favouring emotion and personality based arguments which leaves us all a bit stuck with who we like and dislike in a polarised fashion that again is to the main benefit of the parties themselves.

I think it fair to speculate as well that if the dominant political party had been a Liberal party, then both Truss and Johnson would have been liberals. Edit: remained liberals.

But you know the worst thing of all about UK politics? In my entire life, my vote and opinion has never even mattered. It literally has had no significance. I would either have to move to a swing constituency or join a political party for it to do so. Or rant on a rugby forum, converting thousands to my way of thinking, naturally. Until this changes I actually wish I'd never even taken an interest in the first place, as I'd probably be happier as a result. And the Conservative Party are pretty happy with this situation plus Labour have shown no sign of changing it either, which again says something. That, perhaps, is the biggest con of all: the illusion of choice.


Edited by dr_martinov - 07 September 2022 at 2:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SA14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2022 at 6:51pm
I wish there was a Labour government. I’ve been reading their Twitter feed and all the things they promise. The country would be a perfect place to live. Britain would be renamed Utopia. 😍
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletnut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2022 at 6:53pm
Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

I wish there was a Labour government. I’ve been reading their Twitter feed and all the things they promise. The country would be a perfect place to live. Britain would be renamed Utopia. 😍
It would be significantly better than what we’ve got now 
I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SA14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2022 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

I wish there was a Labour government. I’ve been reading their Twitter feed and all the things they promise. The country would be a perfect place to live. Britain would be renamed Utopia. 😍
It would be significantly better than what we’ve got now 

Yes that’s possible. But why make sweeping statements like they are. It’s like me saying if I found a billion pounds at the end a rainbow I’d give everyone on the forum an equal share. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ladram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2022 at 8:00pm
There is only 1 person on this forum who said he would share a jackpot win and that is the great Lofty.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2022 at 2:19am
Dont panic, the new iron lady is about to bail out  these poor multi billion energy and fuel monopolies with over £100  billion of tax payers money....Bless....Its a kind of robin hood reversal, deprive the poor to feed the uber rich even more. Apparently its because shes against tax rises, although conversely the tories always keep VAT high to hammer the masses..So clearly thats another lie....She also claims the likes of her ex bosses at shell or BP may take all their oil rigs abroad if we dared tax their tens of billions of profits more....Utter tripe
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2022 at 2:20am
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

There is only 1 person on this forum who said he would share a jackpot win and that is the great Lofty.

Ill donate the bit he gives me to you ladram LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crj89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2022 at 10:55am
Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

I wish there was a Labour government. I’ve been reading their Twitter feed and all the things they promise. The country would be a perfect place to live. Britain would be renamed Utopia. 😍
It would be significantly better than what we’ve got now 

Yes that’s possible. But why make sweeping statements like they are. It’s like me saying if I found a billion pounds at the end a rainbow I’d give everyone on the forum an equal share. 


Like the price freeze on energy bills which the Labour Party proposed, but will be soon implemented by the Tories?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2022 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by crj89 crj89 wrote:

Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

I wish there was a Labour government. I’ve been reading their Twitter feed and all the things they promise. The country would be a perfect place to live. Britain would be renamed Utopia. 😍
It would be significantly better than what we’ve got now 

Yes that’s possible. But why make sweeping statements like they are. It’s like me saying if I found a billion pounds at the end a rainbow I’d give everyone on the forum an equal share. 


Like the price freeze on energy bills which the Labour Party proposed, but will be soon implemented by the Tories?
Leaving the tax payers with a £100 billion plus bill, to further line the pockets of these greedy energy monopolies, a public debt that will take decades to pay off
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SA14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2022 at 5:36pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by crj89 crj89 wrote:

Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

I wish there was a Labour government. I’ve been reading their Twitter feed and all the things they promise. The country would be a perfect place to live. Britain would be renamed Utopia. 😍
It would be significantly better than what we’ve got now 

Yes that’s possible. But why make sweeping statements like they are. It’s like me saying if I found a billion pounds at the end a rainbow I’d give everyone on the forum an equal share. 


Like the price freeze on energy bills which the Labour Party proposed, but will be soon implemented by the Tories?
Leaving the tax payers with a £100 billion plus bill, to further line the pockets of these greedy energy monopolies, a public debt that will take decades to pay off

Who would leave the tax payers with a bill? You mean both would surely unless Baldrick is in charge of labours policies with his cunning plans. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Legendinmybathroom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2022 at 6:23pm
The money is coming from state borrowing, so that means the tax payers will be paying for this bailout for the next 30-40 years (so our children and grandchildren).  Truss and her generation will not be paying it back, and neither will the CEOs of the energy companies who will receive huge dividends from the 150billion pound profits they are expected to make in over the next 18 months or so.  Profits from not doing anything at all but profiteering from the global energy crisis and the way the Tory government structures the way the energy companies (in particular) can charge the consumer for gas and electricity.
How on earth is it right that energy companies (who produce renewable energy only) are allowed to charge consumers at the rate of those who produce electricity using oil fired power stations.  
It was mentioned yesterday on politics live that Liz Truss was a former executive of BP, if that is correct (even if it was as a non elected member) that is in anyones eyes would be seen as a conflict of interests.
On top of that, there was also talk yesterday that the new Tory government were trying to change the terms in which the investigation into whether BOJO mislead parliament over partygate.  If true, then I believe all faith in politics will be lost as one of the downfalls for BOJO ministerial position was his attempt to change the rules to cover his friend Owen Paterson.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SA14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2022 at 7:47pm
Originally posted by Legendinmybathroom Legendinmybathroom wrote:

The money is coming from state borrowing, so that means the tax payers will be paying for this bailout for the next 30-40 years (so our children and grandchildren).  Truss and her generation will not be paying it back, and neither will the CEOs of the energy companies who will receive huge dividends from the 150billion pound profits they are expected to make in over the next 18 months or so.  Profits from not doing anything at all but profiteering from the global energy crisis and the way the Tory government structures the way the energy companies (in particular) can charge the consumer for gas and electricity.
How on earth is it right that energy companies (who produce renewable energy only) are allowed to charge consumers at the rate of those who produce electricity using oil fired power stations.  
It was mentioned yesterday on politics live that Liz Truss was a former executive of BP, if that is correct (even if it was as a non elected member) that is in anyones eyes would be seen as a conflict of interests.
On top of that, there was also talk yesterday that the new Tory government were trying to change the terms in which the investigation into whether BOJO mislead parliament over partygate.  If true, then I believe all faith in politics will be lost as one of the downfalls for BOJO ministerial position was his attempt to change the rules to cover his friend Owen Paterson.

So if Labour do it tax payers don’t pay?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Legendinmybathroom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2022 at 11:26pm
That’s not what I’m saying.  The cost of the bailout is expected to be around 150 billion to the tax payers off the UK - so we will give you the money now (to survive) but you will pay it back over the next 30-40 years in taxes.
At the same time, many energy experts and scholars have estimated that the gas and energy companies would have made somewhere between 100 and 150 billion in profits by the end of 2023, without having to have lifted a finger to do so.
So labour’s suggestion of getting those companies to pick up most of that cost in the form of another windfall tax would seem reasonable and fair to most people (who are currently really struggling).
However, even labour would have to find some extra money to cover the total cost of the bailout, but obviously they wouldn’t be burdened the tax payers with the full amount.

On a more somber note, I would like to pay my respect to HRH Queen Elizabeth, and my condolences go her family.  The way she carried out her duties to the country and the commonwealth was exemplary, if only certain people in high office conducted themselves in the same manor in which she did, the world would be a much greater place to live in.

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