Scarlet Fever Llanelli Rugby Sport Wales Tickets Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > RUGBY > GENERAL RUGBY
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Tiger Machismo
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login


Tiger Machismo

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
NobbySosban View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 30 June 2010
Location: Sir Berk
Status: Offline
Points: 6278
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NobbySosban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Tiger Machismo
    Posted: 18 September 2018 at 10:53am
What is it with the machismo levels exuding from Tigers, past and present?

First interim Tigers coach Geordan Murphy says, "The game's gone too PC" (whatever that means Confused) after Will Spencer was sent off for smashing his shoulder into Tommy Taylor's head in a late tackle on Sunday. His solution? "We need to start picking players under five foot."

Then Tigers prop Ellis Genge ridicules his teammate, former Leinster and Ireland player James Ryan, who was forced to retire last week through the effects of concussion, in a tirade of tweets about Spencer's red card. He finished with "Well if I get a concussion I probably won't remember it will I mucker". Well, quite. Wacko

Now former Tigers boss, Richard Cockerill, has added his two penn'eth with, "If you don't want to get hurt, don't play the sport", saying that Spencer's hit was "probably a yellow card."

Not sure what's in the water at Welford Road to make them particularly rabid, although they've always had a forward-oriented 'power' philosophy on the game - narrow-pitches and narrow minds?

In fairness to Cockers, he did clarify the need to balance the risks, saying, "You want the game to be safe but you just have to go and play and accept that there are risks in playing." But it shows the challenge the game's governing bodies has with the growing time-bomb of long-term brain injuries that are beginning to store up in the modern, high-impact game. Macho posturing from ex-players, current coaches and, worse still, current internationals, whose welfare is foremost in these concerns, is, at best, unhelpful.





Edited by NobbySosban - 18 September 2018 at 11:19am
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 01 December 2014
Location: Rhydcymerau
Status: Offline
Points: 18784
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2018 at 11:23am
Haven't seen the Spencer issue but it appears that most commentators are saying the red was very harsh. Intent must be an overriding factor when these decisions are made. In the tackle situation there are so many contributing factors such as whether a tackled player is already going to the floor when contact is made. 

To be fair to the Tigers lads there are many current & former players saying that we haven't got it right yet. I don't think anyone is really advocating to move away from the core aim which is to protect players from head injuries. However a red card is the ultimate sanction available and should be used sensibly. 
Back to Top
reesytheexile View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 11 August 2012
Location: Machynys
Status: Offline
Points: 17530
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reesytheexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2018 at 1:33pm
How long before we end up with Helmets !aargh !! It seems intent is not always relevant now just because a shoulder (usually) meets a head as part of the tackle the message is 'well it made the head regardless of intent and off you go'. Its getting so hard to police and harder to tackle especially with players ducking often to try and beat a defender.

I also wish refs would now stop players from all teams taking out 'Jacklers' really by side entry and lifting the legs up and over so they are not standing their ground and have to release. Counter jacklers should come from the front and be penalised constantly if nor. It would ensure more turn overs I think and a more open game-thoughts?

Are we also all happy with Yellow Cards still being 10 minutes for all offences regardless of technical or physical ? Should some be 5 minutes which is still a long time in game time of roughly 50-55 minutes or so (at most)?
Back to Top
aber-fan View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 25 October 2004
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 18857
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2018 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

How long before we end up with Helmets !aargh !! It seems intent is not always relevant now just because a shoulder (usually) meets a head as part of the tackle the message is 'well it made the head regardless of intent and off you go'. Its getting so hard to police and harder to tackle especially with players ducking often to try and beat a defender.

I also wish refs would now stop players from all teams taking out 'Jacklers' really by side entry and lifting the legs up and over so they are not standing their ground and have to release. Counter jacklers should come from the front and be penalised constantly if nor. It would ensure more turn overs I think and a more open game-thoughts?

Are we also all happy with Yellow Cards still being 10 minutes for all offences regardless of technical or physical ? Should some be 5 minutes which is still a long time in game time of roughly 50-55 minutes or so (at most)?

I half agree with you.

The NFL has (recently, I think) banned helmet-to-helmet contact, and not before time. You can get away with a lot more in NFL than rugby, though, as far as I can see... helmets are dangerous in themselves, and people without helmets are more careful, IMO.

As for 'intent' - this is a really tricky one. Sometimes, players are falling which turns what would have been a tackle to the chest/shoulder into a head one. Sensible refs show some understanding here, and either give a penalty only or a YC... how hard the contact is can be a factor in these decisions. Problems can arise when crafty old bastards such as one ex-Ulster player, now with Blues, do an 'accidental-on-purpose' hit... I'm not thinking of recent examples here, BTW, but past observations which I'd find hard to trace.

I do completely agree that when someone is legitimately attempting a jackal, there is no way opponents should be allowed to turn them upside down - it's dangerous, and as you say is often done via a side entry. In any case, I thought spear tackles had been banned - how is this different?
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
Back to Top
Wil Chips View Drop Down
Rambler
Rambler
Avatar

Joined: 23 August 2009
Location: Pembs
Status: Offline
Points: 50983
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2018 at 6:48pm
I get that questions around interpretation and intent of (non technical infringements) cards will always prevail. It’s doutbful whether those views above have any place in mainstream media though. Foolish from those guys really.

And to be honest I do find myself thinking what it was like in ‘ my day’...the days before tip tackling was outlawed, staggered scrum engagement, no arms tackle and rucking anyone on the wrong side was perfectly legit etc...but I just watch Scott play...we are the same sort of height and build.

But I was the biggest / heaviest player in my Uni team...I was a No 8 or 2nd row...now I’d be your average centre.

I just can’t qualify how the human body can cope with you average player being bigger, leaner and more powerful and how that translates in to contact.
Back to Top
scarletabroad View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 12 July 2011
Location: Hertfordshire
Status: Offline
Points: 4227
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletabroad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2018 at 8:14am
reduce the number of subs go back to 3 and a prop then you wont have half a team change at 60 min and have fresh 19 stone hulks battering into tired players who play a whole match, players will then have to change their condioning and go from weights to more cardio orientated training for longevity of game time, plus space will open up as the players get tired without the the almost full team replacement which will allow for more tries in open play.
Result will also potentialy be less heavy contact as players will have to lose a few stone to last 80 odd mins of play.

Edited by scarletabroad - 19 September 2018 at 8:17am
Back to Top
Wil Chips View Drop Down
Rambler
Rambler
Avatar

Joined: 23 August 2009
Location: Pembs
Status: Offline
Points: 50983
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2018 at 1:17pm
Decent call that.
Back to Top
GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 01 December 2014
Location: Rhydcymerau
Status: Offline
Points: 18784
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2018 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by scarletabroad scarletabroad wrote:

reduce the number of subs go back to 3 and a prop then you wont have half a team change at 60 min and have fresh 19 stone hulks battering into tired players who play a whole match, players will then have to change their condioning and go from weights to more cardio orientated training for longevity of game time, plus space will open up as the players get tired without the the almost full team replacement which will allow for more tries in open play.
Result will also potentialy be less heavy contact as players will have to lose a few stone to last 80 odd mins of play.

You have a high profile supporter of your ideas - Brian Moore has been suggesting something along similar lines recently. Its an eminently sensible idea. 
Back to Top
ap sior View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 08 May 2005
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 11414
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ap sior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2018 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by scarletabroad scarletabroad wrote:

reduce the number of subs go back to 3 and a prop then you wont have half a team change at 60 min and have fresh 19 stone hulks battering into tired players who play a whole match, players will then have to change their condioning and go from weights to more cardio orientated training for longevity of game time, plus space will open up as the players get tired without the the almost full team replacement which will allow for more tries in open play.
Result will also potentialy be less heavy contact as players will have to lose a few stone to last 80 odd mins of play.

Good idea, but you could sort of follow football's example by having a bigger bench, with only 3 allowed on.
Back to Top
ap sior View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 08 May 2005
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 11414
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ap sior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2018 at 1:44pm
I guess another upside could be is that with only 3 subs allowed, players may not physically be able to play every week, only playing say 2 out of 3 every matches. This will then allow players some recovery time during the season.
Back to Top
supertaf View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 17 August 2004
Location: Down the Parc
Status: Offline
Points: 9079
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertaf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2018 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Haven't seen the Spencer issue but it appears that most commentators are saying the red was very harsh. Intent must be an overriding factor when these decisions are made. In the tackle situation there are so many contributing factors such as whether a tackled player is already going to the floor when contact is made. 

To be fair to the Tigers lads there are many current & former players saying that we haven't got it right yet. I don't think anyone is really advocating to move away from the core aim which is to protect players from head injuries. However a red card is the ultimate sanction available and should be used sensibly. 
I watched it and all the replays and it's 100% a red card. He led with the shoulder and caught Taylor in the head. Agree that he probably didn't mean to hit him in the head but that is a stupid argument, he did. Players need to stop leading with the shoulder, easy.
Scarlets - Suppliers of fine rugby since 1872
Back to Top
Mogwen View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 07 April 2013
Location: Yma o Hyd
Status: Offline
Points: 4489
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mogwen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2018 at 8:12pm
Red card all day long. Shoulder to head, easy decision
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
Back to Top
aber-fan View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 25 October 2004
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 18857
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2018 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by scarletabroad scarletabroad wrote:

reduce the number of subs go back to 3 and a prop then you wont have half a team change at 60 min and have fresh 19 stone hulks battering into tired players who play a whole match, players will then have to change their condioning and go from weights to more cardio orientated training for longevity of game time, plus space will open up as the players get tired without the the almost full team replacement which will allow for more tries in open play.
Result will also potentialy be less heavy contact as players will have to lose a few stone to last 80 odd mins of play.

Good idea, but you could sort of follow football's example by having a bigger bench, with only 3 allowed on.

That would be the way to go, if the idea has mileage... rugby is so specialised that you can't have just one front rower on the bench - if the 'wrong' front row player was injured in minute 1, you'd end up with 79 min of uncontested scrums! It's a tricky one, though.
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
Back to Top
NobbySosban View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 30 June 2010
Location: Sir Berk
Status: Offline
Points: 6278
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NobbySosban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2018 at 5:22pm
As reported in Times & Telegraph yesterday, Geordan Murphy has climbed down from his post-match comments, pleading his inexperience in the heat of the moment.

Originally posted by The Telegraph The Telegraph wrote:

Geordan Murphy regrets saying that the game had gone ‘too PC’ in the aftermath of the red card shown to Will Spencer on Sunday for a high tackle and believes instead that the scrutiny could be ‘a watershed moment’ for the sport as it looks to reduce head injuries.

Murphy’s stance drew criticism from those who felt he was not taking the issue of player safety seriously.  

“In heat of the moment, and as a young head coach with no experience of that (TV interview) situation, I shot my mouth a little bit when I needed to sit back and absorb a few things,” said Murphy who was disappointed in himself that he may have sent out a worrying message.

Back to Top
Legendinmybathroom View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 29 May 2017
Location: Burry Port
Status: Offline
Points: 3151
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Legendinmybathroom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2018 at 9:19pm
Honest response by him, it must be difficult being thrust into a limelight at a very big club like Leicester. If remember correctly, Simon Easterby wasn’t great at dealing with all the extra responsibility that came from being head coach/ director of rugby, when he was handed the reins after retiring as a player.
It would be interesting to know whether he had received media training as part of his induction. When you look at the way Pivac conducts himself in front of the media, it’s obvious that he has developed a way of engaging with reporters etc, which puts them at ease, and makes him come across so relaxed. That can only come from experience, and sometimes you make a few gaffs along the way, it what you learn from those gaffes that matters.
I’m sure he won’t be making comments like that again in a hurry.
Back to Top
scarletabroad View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 12 July 2011
Location: Hertfordshire
Status: Offline
Points: 4227
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletabroad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2018 at 8:59am
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by scarletabroad scarletabroad wrote:

reduce the number of subs go back to 3 and a prop then you wont have half a team change at 60 min and have fresh 19 stone hulks battering into tired players who play a whole match, players will then have to change their condioning and go from weights to more cardio orientated training for longevity of game time, plus space will open up as the players get tired without the the almost full team replacement which will allow for more tries in open play.
Result will also potentialy be less heavy contact as players will have to lose a few stone to last 80 odd mins of play.


Good idea, but you could sort of follow football's example by having a bigger bench, with only 3 allowed on.


That would be the way to go, if the idea has mileage... rugby is so specialised that you can't have just one front rower on the bench - if the 'wrong' front row player was injured in minute 1, you'd end up with 79 min of uncontested scrums! It's a tricky one, though.

Yeah a large bench would be good so long as the actually new players is reduced. Never happen mind but its worth a chat about it
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.04
Copyright ©2001-2021 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.