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Saracens docked 35 points...

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EJPT View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EJPT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

What’s the difference between the IRFU putting in €7m each year (or whatever it is) and Nigel Wray putting in £5m a year? 


There is no difference - apart from one set of accounts being made publicly available, and the other being hidden so we can't see how much their team costs.

It costs €3.50 from cro.ie to see Leinsters accounts if you’re that interested in comparing, they are both publically available. It wasn’t just one set of accounts though was it. It was making payments to players companies to try and get around the ‘salary cap’ , i don’t buy for one second these payments are not salary. And I see your point about Leinster does their wage bill translate to their success...probably. 
Maybe a financial fair play would lead to a better European competition, only done right not like football.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

What’s the difference between the IRFU putting in €7m each year (or whatever it is) and Nigel Wray putting in £5m a year? 


There is no difference - apart from one set of accounts being made publicly available, and the other being hidden so we can't see how much their team costs.


Well I think you would find that the IRFU would argue that there is a big difference. Firstly they are investing from the black i.e. money surpluses made by Irish rugby. Wray's input is firstly a loan and I guess repayable on demand - pretty different animal I would suggest. 


So no different to how say the Scarlets have been funded the last 20 years?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by EJPT EJPT wrote:

]It costs €3.50 from cro.ie to see Leinsters accounts if you’re that interested in comparing, they are both publically available. It wasn’t just one set of accounts though was it. It was making payments to players companies to try and get around the ‘salary cap’ , i don’t buy for one second these payments are not salary. And I see your point about Leinster does their wage bill translate to their success...probably. 
Maybe a financial fair play would lead to a better European competition, only done right not like football.


There is no way of knowing the total spend because it's all wrapped up in the pro game spend in the IRFU annual statement. The Leinster branch spend doesn't give any breakdown. You're welcome to try though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

What’s the difference between the IRFU putting in €7m each year (or whatever it is) and Nigel Wray putting in £5m a year? 


There is no difference - apart from one set of accounts being made publicly available, and the other being hidden so we can't see how much their team costs.


Well I think you would find that the IRFU would argue that there is a big difference. Firstly they are investing from the black i.e. money surpluses made by Irish rugby. Wray's input is firstly a loan and I guess repayable on demand - pretty different animal I would suggest. 


So no different to how say the Scarlets have been funded the last 20 years?

That is correct Kid A - a combination of funding from the WRU and loans which have now been converted from benefactors. Where Mr Wray's actions differ are not only in the extent of loans but also he is working under salary cap rules. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Where Mr Wray's actions differ are not only in the extent of loans but also he is working under salary cap rules. 


Wray claims that his club have been provided with confirmation that the co-investments (E.g. property companies with Mario Itoje) are not included in the salary cap. He also says that there is precedent in the past in England, where these investments have not been included in the salary cap. If that is true, then the lawyers will be busy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Where Mr Wray's actions differ are not only in the extent of loans but also he is working under salary cap rules. 


Wray claims that his club have been provided with confirmation that the co-investments (E.g. property companies with Mario Itoje) are not included in the salary cap. He also says that there is precedent in the past in England, where these investments have not been included in the salary cap. If that is true, then the lawyers will be busy.
It may have been going on in the past but there is now an attempt to bring it under control.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dai38 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 2:55pm
I have briefly read the BBC & Mail on line and in all honesty it all seems so confusing that in some places it says Saracens have not breached the wage cap, and yet they have filled inaccurate records for some 3 years, and is that why the Finance Director and another senior manager have left the club.

The points have yet to be deducted until the final outcome is determined, as per quote from Mail On Line....Saracens will remain in fourth place in the table with an asterisk against their names explaining that this is subject to review. 

The famous words an Administrative error also appears.

There is a lot of water to go under the bridge before this is resolved, and as usual the legal profession will make a fortune.

Not defending Saracens but what about the other clubs, are they whiter than white or just more careful in completing the documentation.

In all honesty I have already lost interest in the story, and will await the final chapter some time in the future.
Be careful when you pick up the stick.........IT MAY BE THE WRONG END!!!!!!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 3:08pm
If Saracens’ over spend was a administrative error as they say the panel has come to that conclusion (doubt it myself) then I do believe that they’re punishment is a but harsh.
On the point of difference between Leinster and Saracens’ funding model I personnally see more of a similarite between the IRFU money to Leinster and the money given to the English clubs by the RFU in the (professional game agreement?) than the loan that Nigel Wray uses to fund the Saracens.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

On the point of difference between Leinster and Saracens’ funding model I personnally see more of a similarite between the IRFU money to Leinster and the money given to the English clubs by the RFU in the (professional game agreement?)


The RFU money to the clubs is like the WRU money to us. Effectively payment for services and player release.

IRFU bankrolls the 4 provinces. One of them has just signed a world cup winning south african centre! We could only dream of being able to attract that sort of player.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gate12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 3:38pm
Without getting into the differences between funding models at clubs and unions and the rights and wrongs of them you'd hope that one of the terms in European tournaments is that clubs within it adhere to their domestic rules and regulations, or there's at least something within their domestic rules that prevent them being a representative of their league in Europe if they don't adhere to their agreements.
 
Seems a bit daft that if Saracens points were docked retrospectively (I know they weren't) and their premiership title stripped (in turn suggesting if they kept within the rules they wouldn't have qualified for Europe let alone won it) they'd still qualify for the subsequent years tournament as they were the winner in that season.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote joni_bach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 4:04pm
It's a pity the B&I Cup isn't running anymore. Might have been a nice trip for the rfc to Allianz Park next season. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Legendinmybathroom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 9:15pm
Saracens have been flouting the rules for years.  I remember reading some comments by Wray last season when there were allegations being made by other premiership teams where he said that he would rather work the way they did and be successful on the field than to work within their means and be mediocre on the field.
Those comments may well have really grated with some other club chairmen and they may well have put pressure on the power brokers to come down hard on Saracens.
I also believe that many other clubs have probably been doing similar (but probably to a lesser degree).  I remember reading some comments by the Bristol chairman (I think, although it may have been another chairman) last season, where he alluded to the fact that even though his club were spending up to the maximum of the imposed salary cap, he was unable to keep hold of some of his best players and couldn’t compete with the likes of Saracens when trying to add new players to his playing squad.
It must be really frustrating for the clubs that try and compete whilst staying within the rules set, whilst some clubs use loopholes wherever possible to gain an advantage, hoping that any fine or penalty imposed (if caught out) isn’t as severe as the benefits gained from breaking the rules.
Perhaps that’s what Saracens thought.  Perhaps they believed that they could carry on doing what they’ve done for the past 3 seasons thinking that if found guilty they would get a slap on the wrists and a small fine.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PTScarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 November 2019 at 4:22am
Rumors that the premiership might be ring-fenced this year meaning no relegation... Saracens would be saved from relegation if that happens.
One eyed turk, nothing more nothing less.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Legendinmybathroom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 November 2019 at 5:45am
I’d read about that too a few months ago.  I believe a lot of the chairmen want that to happen (the Bristol chairman was very vocal about it last season), as his team are usually perenial strugglers in the premiership.
If it means that Saracens stay up they will bring it in, as they won’t want to lose a big brand/club, as it may affect the brand of the whole league.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 November 2019 at 7:29am
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

On the point of difference between Leinster and Saracens’ funding model I personnally see more of a similarite between the IRFU money to Leinster and the money given to the English clubs by the RFU in the (professional game agreement?)


The RFU money to the clubs is like the WRU money to us. Effectively payment for services and player release.

IRFU bankrolls the 4 provinces. One of them has just signed a world cup winning south african centre! We could only dream of being able to attract that sort of player.

I would imagine we already have a centre on our books who costs as much if not more than De Allende is going to cost Munster.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 November 2019 at 7:37am
Originally posted by Legendinmybathroom Legendinmybathroom wrote:

Saracens have been flouting the rules for years.  I remember reading some comments by Wray last season when there were allegations being made by other premiership teams where he said that he would rather work the way they did and be successful on the field than to work within their means and be mediocre on the field.
Those comments may well have really grated with some other club chairmen and they may well have put pressure on the power brokers to come down hard on Saracens.
I also believe that many other clubs have probably been doing similar (but probably to a lesser degree).  I remember reading some comments by the Bristol chairman (I think, although it may have been another chairman) last season, where he alluded to the fact that even though his club were spending up to the maximum of the imposed salary cap, he was unable to keep hold of some of his best players and couldn’t compete with the likes of Saracens when trying to add new players to his playing squad.
It must be really frustrating for the clubs that try and compete whilst staying within the rules set, whilst some clubs use loopholes wherever possible to gain an advantage, hoping that any fine or penalty imposed (if caught out) isn’t as severe as the benefits gained from breaking the rules.
Perhaps that’s what Saracens thought.  Perhaps they believed that they could carry on doing what they’ve done for the past 3 seasons thinking that if found guilty they would get a slap on the wrists and a small fine.


Apparently Saracens had to reach an agreement back in 2015 with the Premiership which dealt with salary cap misdemeanours up to that point. This penalty relates to the period from then. I would be very surprised if an appeal succeeds. Powerful chairmen in the league like Exeter's Brown are lining up looking for a more severe punishment to be handed down. One minute your beating the All Blacks next you lose the World Cup and find your employer in the dock - funny old game!!!!!
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