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Saracens docked 35 points...

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EJPT View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EJPT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by EJPT EJPT wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

I've always found it quite strange that teams in Wales, Ireland, Scotland etc can spend what they like. Yet teams in England have to have a ceiling amount that they have to spend under yet the English teams are seen as the big bad guys.

We couldn’t compete with their spending even at their salary cap level. 


Other teams can though. Same squads for Europe too - which has no salary cap.
Probably why There has only been 3 winners in the past 9 years Sarries, Leinster and Toulon. But credit to Leinster the players they produce are consistently class. Sarries and Toulon have thrown so much money about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 1:31pm
Originally posted by EJPT EJPT wrote:

]Probably why There has only been 3 winners in the past 9 years Sarries, Leinster and Toulon. But credit to Leinster the players they produce are consistently class. Sarries and Toulon have thrown so much money about.


All three have similar wage spend. Leinster are able to hang on to their players because the IRFU spends so much to keep them there.

In reality, the English Premiership shouldn't have a salary cap - Just like the Pro14. We'd see some real moaning then, when Saracens win their 10th consecutive league and cup double.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 1:33pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by EJPT EJPT wrote:

]Probably why There has only been 3 winners in the past 9 years Sarries, Leinster and Toulon. But credit to Leinster the players they produce are consistently class. Sarries and Toulon have thrown so much money about.


All three have similar wage spend. Leinster are able to hang on to their players because the IRFU spends so much to keep them there.

In reality, the English Premiership shouldn't have a salary cap - Just like the Pro14. We'd see some real moaning then, when Saracens win their 10th consecutive league and cup double.
Out of interest, why?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by EJPT EJPT wrote:

]Probably why There has only been 3 winners in the past 9 years Sarries, Leinster and Toulon. But credit to Leinster the players they produce are consistently class. Sarries and Toulon have thrown so much money about.


All three have similar wage spend. Leinster are able to hang on to their players because the IRFU spends so much to keep them there.

In reality, the English Premiership shouldn't have a salary cap - Just like the Pro14. We'd see some real moaning then, when Saracens win their 10th consecutive league and cup double.
Out of interest, why?


Because other leagues don't. As long as we all compete in Europe together, the rules should be the same. There is no salary cap in Europe - but the squads are the same (you can't have Europe only players).

The same with multiple ownership; no single body is allowed to own more than 1 team in the English Premiership. Yet in the Pro14 and Europe, one body owns 4 teams - Swapping players between them to make them all stronger! It's a nonsense!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 1:43pm
Whether they should have a salary cap is a fair question but irrelevant in this case. Wray has purposely gone out of his way to circumvent a known rule so is guilty as charged. Hopefully it will be made clear to Mr Wray before he files his appeal that the punishment can also go up as well as down. 

Personally I would love to see Saracens relegated and lose some of their star players as what they have tried to do is plainly wrong on all levels. Lets not forget they were part of the decision making group - Premiership Rugby - who introduced the salary cap in the first place. Obviously I feel for their supporters as they have no control over the honesty of their management. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 1:45pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Wray has purposely gone out of his way to circumvent a known rule so is guilty as charged.


That is not what the panel found.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EJPT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 1:46pm
The top 14 has a salary cap, it just eclipses everyones ability to spend that amount. Irish and Welsh clubs only spend what they can afford on par or below the premiership cap. 

Struggle to understand why you wouldn’t want to help us retain our homegrown talent and instead you’d rather see our players play for the richest teams. But each to their own I guess...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by EJPT EJPT wrote:

The top 14 has a salary cap, it just eclipses everyones ability to spend that amount. Irish and Welsh clubs only spend what they can afford on par or below the premiership cap. 


All clubs spend what they can afford. Including Saracens. They are just bankrolled differently. Unless you think Connacht are actually self sustainable for their £5m salary pot.

Quote Struggle to understand why you wouldn’t want to help us retain our homegrown talent and instead you’d rather see our players play for the richest teams. But each to their own I guess...


Yes that's exactly what I said.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Wray has purposely gone out of his way to circumvent a known rule so is guilty as charged.


That is not what the panel found.

Perhaps you could enlighten me as to why they have been penalised.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by EJPT EJPT wrote:

]Probably why There has only been 3 winners in the past 9 years Sarries, Leinster and Toulon. But credit to Leinster the players they produce are consistently class. Sarries and Toulon have thrown so much money about.


All three have similar wage spend. Leinster are able to hang on to their players because the IRFU spends so much to keep them there.

In reality, the English Premiership shouldn't have a salary cap - Just like the Pro14. We'd see some real moaning then, when Saracens win their 10th consecutive league and cup double.
Out of interest, why?


Because other leagues don't. As long as we all compete in Europe together, the rules should be the same. There is no salary cap in Europe - but the squads are the same (you can't have Europe only players).

The same with multiple ownership; no single body is allowed to own more than 1 team in the English Premiership. Yet in the Pro14 and Europe, one body owns 4 teams - Swapping players between them to make them all stronger! It's a nonsense!!!
Interesting. Not sure if I agree about the no salary cap bit.
The Premiership has obviously decided it wants the clubs to prioritise winning the league and so they want to keep it as even as possible. As they organise, market and insure that league I think they’re within their rights to do so. If it means they’re going to be less competitive in Europe, that’s their decision.

I agree on the second point. It’s definitely murky, and a cynic could argue that some results towards the end of the season can be influenced to get certain teams into more profitable competitions the next year.. which is just wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EJPT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by EJPT EJPT wrote:

The top 14 has a salary cap, it just eclipses everyones ability to spend that amount. Irish and Welsh clubs only spend what they can afford on par or below the premiership cap. 


All clubs spend what they can afford. Including Saracens. They are just bankrolled differently. Unless you think Connacht are actually self sustainable for their £5m salary pot.

Quote Struggle to understand why you wouldn’t want to help us retain our homegrown talent and instead you’d rather see our players play for the richest teams. But each to their own I guess...


Yes that's exactly what I said.

Just bankrolled differently LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Wray has purposely gone out of his way to circumvent a known rule so is guilty as charged.


That is not what the panel found.


Perhaps you could enlighten me as to why they have been penalised.


Yes. Their statement:

Quote The Club is pleased the Panel acknowledged it did not deliberately attempt to breach the salary cap and steadfastly maintains that player co-investments do not constitute salary under the regulations. This view is supported by independent legal and professional experts.

The Club will continue to vigorously defend this position especially as PRL precedent already exists whereby co-investments have not been deemed part of salary in the regulations.


If they have broken the salary cap regulations (deliberately or otherwise), they should be punished.

If they have been told that certain payments do NOT count towards the salary cap, but now have been punished for those payments, then this will run and run.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by EJPT EJPT wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by EJPT EJPT wrote:

The top 14 has a salary cap, it just eclipses everyones ability to spend that amount. Irish and Welsh clubs only spend what they can afford on par or below the premiership cap. 


All clubs spend what they can afford. Including Saracens. They are just bankrolled differently. Unless you think Connacht are actually self sustainable for their £5m salary pot.

Quote Struggle to understand why you wouldn’t want to help us retain our homegrown talent and instead you’d rather see our players play for the richest teams. But each to their own I guess...


Yes that's exactly what I said.

Just bankrolled differently LOL
Kid A is right though. What’s the difference between the IRFU putting in €7m each year (or whatever it is) and Nigel Wray putting in £5m a year? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

What’s the difference between the IRFU putting in €7m each year (or whatever it is) and Nigel Wray putting in £5m a year? 


There is no difference - apart from one set of accounts being made publicly available, and the other being hidden so we can't see how much their team costs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Wray has purposely gone out of his way to circumvent a known rule so is guilty as charged.


That is not what the panel found.


Perhaps you could enlighten me as to why they have been penalised.


Yes. Their statement:

Quote The Club is pleased the Panel acknowledged it did not deliberately attempt to breach the salary cap and steadfastly maintains that player co-investments do not constitute salary under the regulations. This view is supported by independent legal and professional experts.

The Club will continue to vigorously defend this position especially as PRL precedent already exists whereby co-investments have not been deemed part of salary in the regulations.


If they have broken the salary cap regulations (deliberately or otherwise), they should be punished.

If they have been told that certain payments do NOT count towards the salary cap, but now have been punished for those payments, then this will run and run.

Thanks Kid A. I thought I may have missed something but I had read that comment. I think Wray is on pretty dodgy ground - sometimes when your in a hole you've got to stop digging. Basically he is trying to say that the enquiry agreed with him that his private deals with Itoje, the Vunipolas & Farrell should not be treated as salaries yet they have found Saracens guilty of breaching the salary cap for 3 seasons in a row. Something is not quite right here & it is going to cost Saracens a lot more money to pursue an appeal. I think most sensible supporters will have flinched a little when they read originally about Wray's personal investments with his players. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2019 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

What’s the difference between the IRFU putting in €7m each year (or whatever it is) and Nigel Wray putting in £5m a year? 


There is no difference - apart from one set of accounts being made publicly available, and the other being hidden so we can't see how much their team costs.

Well I think you would find that the IRFU would argue that there is a big difference. Firstly they are investing from the black i.e. money surpluses made by Irish rugby. Wray's input is firstly a loan and I guess repayable on demand - pretty different animal I would suggest. 
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