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dr_martinov View Drop Down
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    Posted: 22 June 2018 at 9:42am
Well this is going smoothly isn't it?
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SospanMawr View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 9:49am
Can. Worms. Opened.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 10:50am
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Can. Worms. Opened.

Yeah I know I'm a poo stirrer. Wink Both sides input would be welcomed - Brexitiers, is this how you thought things would go? - but I'd ask if people keep it as friendly as possible, as I know passions got high during the vote itself (including my own I know).

I'm as bored of Brexit-related news stories as anyone and am mainly taking an apathetic position of laughing at the ineptitude of government and funny readers comments on BBC news stories, which I know isn't particularly constructive. I keep my view I think Brexit was the wrong decision BUT actually respect the fact the decision was made and always try and keep an open mind on things. I accept there is media bias from the sites I read (BBC, Guardian) and also am influenced due to my current job within a research University. 

I think we now see the weakness in our current governmental system in terms of actually getting things done, the massive lead the Tories have over Labour, and the deep rift within the Conservative Party with muddled leadership. There's clearly a large divide in society as well and this is, unfortunately, going to be a generation-defining issue for us which may have interesting influences when my own generation are in political power. It may not be for the worst thing in the world but it is an utter mess at present and clearly none of the politicians had any clue about what would happen if the vote was to leave.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 11:41am
I've seen a lot of people express #Bregret on social media i.e. regret at voting leave..
Personally yes I was a remainer and although I could see some of the points that leavers made to me, I always wanted to ask yeah but do you trust the government we have in place to organise and negotiate one of the biggest, most important and difficult acts in modern history?
 
It also amazed me how people couldn't see how obvious some of the blatant lies were.. the bus springs to mind, now Rees-Mogg talking about the 'Brexit dividend' and Farage talking about patriotism whilst simultaneously planning to move away and investing large amounts of money outside of the UK but in the EU and Farage taking his EU pension.. all while companies like Jaguar Land-Rover and Airbus are moving jobs out of the UK and cutting thousands of jobs.
 
They only ever had their own interests at heart. Boris and Gove used it to get political power. Farage and Rees-Mogg used it to make money.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ap sior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 11:54am
Having won the vote to leave, I think that all UKIP MEP's should have had the decency to stand down and stopped taking the shilling from Brussels. To carry on taking the money is totally cynical in my view. 

I've heard some of the older generation talk about a return to the 'olden days'. Well that included miners disputes, power cuts, industrial unrest, and a World War. I could go on !

Cometh the day when people realise that it was all a major mistake, Gove, Boris, Davis et all will simply turn around and say 'we only carried out your wishes', having spectacularly failed to explain to people, in full, the consequences of voting Leave. 

As far as having their own interests at heart, Boris saw a chance to become PM, and tried to take it.

Let's not forget that it was Boris who apparently wrote the opening page of the Remain campaign leaflet.

As an aside, on the question of UKIP, I am embarrassed that at the last assembly elections we ended up with 7 (?) UKIP AM's.

One of which subsequently rejoined the Tories and now sits with them in the Cynulliad. They have had 2 leadership 'elections', which were no more than military style coup d'etats.

Rant over, I'm getting back to my work.


Edited by ap sior - 22 June 2018 at 12:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 11:56am
The lies on the bremain were just as bad. The whole campaign was a farce on all sides. As for the NHS, the problems are far more than money, theres systematic corruption there, lets hope the cover ups and unneceessary premature deaths are curbed and prosecutions follow
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 11:59am
Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Having won the vote to leave, I think that all UKIP MEP's should have had the decency to stand down and stopped taking the shilling from Brussels. To carry on taking the money is totally cynical in my view. 

I've heard some of the older generation talk about a return to the 'olden days'. Well that included miners disputes, power cuts, industrial unrest, and a World War. I could go on !

Cometh the day when people realise that it was all a major mistake, Gove, Boris, Davis et all will simply turn around and say 'we only carried out your wishes', having spectacularly failed to explain to people in full the consequences of voting Leave. 

As far as having their own interests at heart, Boris saw a chance to become PM,and tried to take it.

Let's not forget that it was Boris who apparently wrote the opening page of the Remain campaign leaflet.

Thats a pretty generalized impression youre painting of the so called older generation of millions. I saw the great dianne abbott call all 18 million brexiteers racists. Great way to try and win the next election dianne by slandering 18 million voters. The laws should be tightened on such false slanderous accusations
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

The lies on the bremain were just as bad. The whole campaign was a farce on all sides. As for the NHS, the problems are far more than money, theres systematic corruption there, lets hope the cover ups and unneceessary premature deaths are curbed and prosecutions follow
Do you want to stay on topic and address some of the concerns raised instead of telling us that the Leave campaign losing jobs by lying is okay because remain apparently did too and telling us that hospital gross negligence almost two decades ago is in any way related to the fact that leave promised £350m a week to the NHS when they had absolutely no power or authority to do so?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

The lies on the bremain were just as bad. The whole campaign was a farce on all sides. As for the NHS, the problems are far more than money, theres systematic corruption there, lets hope the cover ups and unneceessary premature deaths are curbed and prosecutions follow
Do you want to stay on topic and address some of the concerns raised instead of telling us that the Leave campaign losing jobs by lying is okay because remain apparently did too and telling us that hospital gross negligence almost two decades ago is in any way related to the fact that leave promised £350m a week to the NHS when they had absolutely no power or authority to do so?

its all on topic imo The NHS has phenomenal problems massive systematic ones these horrific findings only came to light this week so it has to be discussed. The abuses and cover ups continue in the NHS. The bremainers at least some get offended every time the NHS abuses were discussed. Some act as though the NHS is beyond criticism which is all part of why these systematic problems have grown and grown. The bremainer politicans showed false outrage just to win cheap votes, it failed. The lies on both sides were appalling as were the exaggerations about everything from the economy to the NHS. The direct net gain from brexit is now estimated at £10 billion a year. Thats £200 million a week which in theory could be spent on the NHS. But the systematic abuses in the NHS are about way more than money. The public sector cover ups, the mass growth of middle management,  the over population, the mass growth of MRSA , why arent you as offended about this as you are about the slogan on a bus? Or do you select what offends you and ignore the lies cover ups abuses on the other side and in the NHS?
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 12:33pm
While were at it and bemoaning brexit. The stock markets have risen by over 25% across all the ftse's since brexit which is not just a measure of wealth but also affects pensions. Yes the pound had fallen 7% but the unemployment rates have fallen from 4.9%  to record lows of 4.1% and the steel industry has bounced back massively after being almost wiped out. The bremainers need to recognise that good news as well as the bad. 

Edited by roy munster - 22 June 2018 at 12:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 12:45pm
First can I get a direct, reliable source for the £10bn you've quoted there please? Then I'm going to try and work out that ramble.
 
Right hang on. What you've said is
- Things that happened 20 years ago, in one hospital, need to be discussed on a Brexit thread.
- You've agreed that the £350m that was plastered very publically and broadly on the side of the bus was at the very least factually incorrect and the actual figure is (apparently) £200m that we "could" spend on the NHS.
- Then you say the NHS doesn't deserve any money because it has too much middle management? You say over population is the NHS' fault? Over population where, in the UK or hospitals? Do you know 12.5% of NHS workers are foreign nationals, and over 1500 visa applications for foreign doctors were turned down at the start of this year? [Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nhs-foreign-doctors-how-many-reliant-immigration-theresa-may-brexit-explained-visa-a8383306.html ]
 
What you haven't said even though I asked
- Whether you think it's appropriate for Leave to have lied about something so important with no regard for the voter
- What you think of Farage, Rees-Mogg etc investing in the EU not the UK
- What you think of the likes of Gove, Boris etc using Brexit as a political piggyback
- What you think of thousands of jobs and millions if not billions of pounds of investment moving out of the country in the form of Jaguar Land-Rover and Airbus
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

While were at it and bemoaning brexit. The stock markets have risen by over 25% across all the ftse's since brexit which is not just a measure of wealth but also affects pensions. Yes the pound had fallen 7% but the unemployment rates have fallen from 4.9%  to record lows of 4.1% and the steel industry has bounced back massively after being almost wiped out. The bremainers need to recognise that good news as well as the bad. 
Okay but what if I tell you
- We are now bottom of the G7 Growth league since Brexit, falling behind the US, Japan, Germany, France, Italy and Canada. [Source: http://www.cityam.com/287982/brexit-vote-two-years-seven-charts-tell-story ]
-Interest has risen after falling in the two years pre-Brexit [Source: same as above]
-There are more 0 hour contracts than ever before which serve to push up employment figures sure, but contribute nothing to the economy, with almost 2m people on them. [Source: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/23/number-of-zero-hours-contracts-in-uk-rose-by-100000-in-2017-ons 
- We produce less than 1% of the steel that China alone does, and steel prices are at their lowest ever due to low demand. [Source: https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7317 ]
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ap sior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Having won the vote to leave, I think that all UKIP MEP's should have had the decency to stand down and stopped taking the shilling from Brussels. To carry on taking the money is totally cynical in my view. 

I've heard some of the older generation talk about a return to the 'olden days'. Well that included miners disputes, power cuts, industrial unrest, and a World War. I could go on !

Cometh the day when people realise that it was all a major mistake, Gove, Boris, Davis et all will simply turn around and say 'we only carried out your wishes', having spectacularly failed to explain to people in full the consequences of voting Leave. 

As far as having their own interests at heart, Boris saw a chance to become PM,and tried to take it.

Let's not forget that it was Boris who apparently wrote the opening page of the Remain campaign leaflet.

Thats a pretty generalized impression youre painting of the so called older generation of millions. I saw the great dianne abbott call all 18 million brexiteers racists. Great way to try and win the next election dianne by slandering 18 million voters. The laws should be tightened on such false slanderous accusations

See the highlighted part.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

First can I get a direct, reliable source for the £10bn you've quoted there please? Then I'm going to try and work out that ramble.
 
Right hang on. What you've said is
- Things that happened 20 years ago, in one hospital, need to be discussed on a Brexit thread.
- You've agreed that the £350m that was plastered very publically and broadly on the side of the bus was at the very least factually incorrect and the actual figure is (apparently) £200m that we "could" spend on the NHS.
- Then you say the NHS doesn't deserve any money because it has too much middle management? You say over population is the NHS' fault? Over population where, in the UK or hospitals? Do you know 12.5% of NHS workers are foreign nationals, and over 1500 visa applications for foreign doctors were turned down at the start of this year? [Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nhs-foreign-doctors-how-many-reliant-immigration-theresa-may-brexit-explained-visa-a8383306.html ]
 
What you haven't said even though I asked
- Whether you think it's appropriate for Leave to have lied about something so important with no regard for the voter
- What you think of Farage, Rees-Mogg etc investing in the EU not the UK
- What you think of the likes of Gove, Boris etc using Brexit as a political piggyback
- What you think of thousands of jobs and millions if not billions of pounds of investment moving out of the country in the form of Jaguar Land-Rover and Airbus

You also need to get your facts clear. What investment by Airbus are you referring to? As far as I can make out they have only stated that they will reconsider future investment and location IF a satisfactory Brexit trade deal is not done. I agree with Roy that both sides were guilty of flagrant overstating of financial issues. From the Brexiteers claims of 350m more per week for the NHS to Osbourne claiming that each family would be £4k per annum worse off to Blair claiming that financial armageddon would occur.

One simple fact that nobody on the Remain side can argue with, of course, is the unbelievable cost to EU taxpayers of the unelected hordes employed by Brussels & Strasbourg ( of course we have to have two centres). If we cannot provide good governance for a fraction of the cost I would be very much surprised. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

First can I get a direct, reliable source for the £10bn you've quoted there please? Then I'm going to try and work out that ramble.
 
Right hang on. What you've said is
- Things that happened 20 years ago, in one hospital, need to be discussed on a Brexit thread.
- You've agreed that the £350m that was plastered very publically and broadly on the side of the bus was at the very least factually incorrect and the actual figure is (apparently) £200m that we "could" spend on the NHS.
- Then you say the NHS doesn't deserve any money because it has too much middle management? You say over population is the NHS' fault? Over population where, in the UK or hospitals? Do you know 12.5% of NHS workers are foreign nationals, and over 1500 visa applications for foreign doctors were turned down at the start of this year? [Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nhs-foreign-doctors-how-many-reliant-immigration-theresa-may-brexit-explained-visa-a8383306.html ]
 
What you haven't said even though I asked
- Whether you think it's appropriate for Leave to have lied about something so important with no regard for the voter
- What you think of Farage, Rees-Mogg etc investing in the EU not the UK
- What you think of the likes of Gove, Boris etc using Brexit as a political piggyback
- What you think of thousands of jobs and millions if not billions of pounds of investment moving out of the country in the form of Jaguar Land-Rover and Airbus

You also need to get your facts clear. What investment by Airbus are you referring to? As far as I can make out they have only stated that they will reconsider future investment and location IF a satisfactory Brexit trade deal is not done. I agree with Roy that both sides were guilty of flagrant overstating of financial issues. From the Brexiteers claims of 350m more per week for the NHS to Osbourne claiming that each family would be £4k per annum worse off to Blair claiming that financial armageddon would occur.

One simple fact that nobody on the Remain side can argue with, of course, is the unbelievable cost to EU taxpayers of the unelected hordes employed by Brussels & Strasbourg ( of course we have to have two centres). If we cannot provide good governance for a fraction of the cost I would be very much surprised. 
Airbus have said, yes, that they will reconsider future investment if we don't get a deal with access to the single market and customs union, which is a bit harder to get that a 'satisfactory' trade deal which you've called it. Do you honesty think the negotiations are doing well? Jeremy Hunt said himself it would be "very difficult" for EU to agree with recent proposals..
 
On your claim of "unbelievable cost" to the UK taxpayer.. another favourite from Leave.. in 2016 it was estimated by an independent company our net cost to be a member of the EU was £8.6bn [Source: https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/] divide that by the estimated 30.3million taxpayers [source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40117521]
8.6bn / 30.3m = 283.
 
So £283 per taxpayer.


Edited by SospanMawr - 22 June 2018 at 1:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

First can I get a direct, reliable source for the £10bn you've quoted there please? Then I'm going to try and work out that ramble.
 
Right hang on. What you've said is
- Things that happened 20 years ago, in one hospital, need to be discussed on a Brexit thread.
- You've agreed that the £350m that was plastered very publically and broadly on the side of the bus was at the very least factually incorrect and the actual figure is (apparently) £200m that we "could" spend on the NHS.
- Then you say the NHS doesn't deserve any money because it has too much middle management? You say over population is the NHS' fault? Over population where, in the UK or hospitals? Do you know 12.5% of NHS workers are foreign nationals, and over 1500 visa applications for foreign doctors were turned down at the start of this year? [Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nhs-foreign-doctors-how-many-reliant-immigration-theresa-may-brexit-explained-visa-a8383306.html ]
 
What you haven't said even though I asked
- Whether you think it's appropriate for Leave to have lied about something so important with no regard for the voter
- What you think of Farage, Rees-Mogg etc investing in the EU not the UK
- What you think of the likes of Gove, Boris etc using Brexit as a political piggyback
- What you think of thousands of jobs and millions if not billions of pounds of investment moving out of the country in the form of Jaguar Land-Rover and Airbus

You also need to get your facts clear. What investment by Airbus are you referring to? As far as I can make out they have only stated that they will reconsider future investment and location IF a satisfactory Brexit trade deal is not done. I agree with Roy that both sides were guilty of flagrant overstating of financial issues. From the Brexiteers claims of 350m more per week for the NHS to Osbourne claiming that each family would be £4k per annum worse off to Blair claiming that financial armageddon would occur.

One simple fact that nobody on the Remain side can argue with, of course, is the unbelievable cost to EU taxpayers of the unelected hordes employed by Brussels & Strasbourg ( of course we have to have two centres). If we cannot provide good governance for a fraction of the cost I would be very much surprised. 
Airbus have said, yes, that they will reconsider future investment if we don't get a deal with access to the single market and customs union, which is a bit harder to get that a 'satisfactory' trade deal which you've called it. Do you honesty think the negotiations are doing well? Jeremy Hunt said himself it would be "very difficult" for EU to agree with recent proposals..
 
On your claim of "unbelievable cost" to the UK taxpayer.. another favourite from Leave.. in 2016 it was estimated by an independent company our net cost to be a member of the EU was £8.6bn [Source: https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/] divide that by the estimated 30.3million taxpayers [source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40117521]
8.6bn / 30.3m = 283.
 
So £283 per taxpayer.

I am afraid here Sospan that you are guilty as others have been of making false statements. You categorically stated that Airbus were taking their investment out of the UK.; That is clearly untrue at this point in time. None of us know what the final deal will be and Airbus' executives, like many others, are being very prudent in making statements which they hope will guide negotiations. You, however, are misusing statements to support your argument.

As for costs do you really think that I need an Independent company whose cost I am sure will be an added burden to us EU taxpayers to tell me that a bunch of unelected bureaucrats who move HQ twice a year as a sop to the French government are not totally out of control. When was the last time this group were independently audited. Indeed you have been quite vociferous with regard to Farage who I believe costs EU taxpayers about £180k per annum. What about all the other MEP's from 28 different countries with their snouts in the trough? You clearly think that us UK taxpayers are getting good value for money do you?
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